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A Christian and Atheist dialogue
November 12, 2009 - 10:00pm
Christian Guy: So you're an atheist?
atheist: yep
Christian Guy: So can i ask you a question?
atheist: Sure..
Christian Guy: What do you do when someone throws a dynamite at you?
atheist: you run or you pick it up and throw it back...duhh...
Christian Guy: Not a bad idea after all but I would of light it up and throw it back
atheist: Hah! good one
Christian Guy: So i heard you atheist believes the evolution theory?
atheist: yes
Christian Guy: so jump out the window and evolve yourself into a bird then
atheist: I can't do that
Christian Guy: Whys that I thought you believe in evolution?
atheist: -blank-
Christian Guy: Be honest with me, so why are you an atheist?
atheist: because i'm gay and I know its not right and theres no excuse
Christian Guy: -Laughs!-
Christian Guy: so you drink every Friday night then?
atheist: no i drink everyday
Christian Guy: no wonder you're an atheist
Christian Guy: So whats your excuse for not believing in God?
atheist: because i don't wanna go to church on sundays and pray
atheist: i admit it! we athiest have the stupidest, lamest excuses and theres no excuse for it! We're stupid!
November 13, 2009 - 9:33pm
#2
golden_april wrote:
Doode, you gotta chill with all this religion stuff,
This is a religion debate thread. Come on here if u like to debate. Thats what this thread is for.
golden_april wrote:
i mean im a Hmong Christian too, but it's not like im gonna go around and say that my religion is better than yours,
Christianity is not a religion. Jesus didnt came down and say "change your religion"? In fact, Jesus says "change your heart"! Christianity is a relationship with God. Religion is man-made. A job of a Christian is to proclaim the Gospel. Salvation is not just for one self, you know? You gotta share it.
I dont think you have done this do you? Becuase if you do, you had defend it already. So you obviously dont get it, or just ignorant. Honestly though... You cant just stay like that. You gotta go and spread the Gospel. That's what this thread is about. It's about debating/discussion and maybe having the oppertunity to come to truth.
golden_april wrote:
the Bible says to not boast in yourself, but boast in the Lord..
Yes, thats true. But i dont think you get it. You already start with a false assumption that i was boasting in myself by qouting that statement. In fact, i have not. I was posting a dialogue between a "Christian and Atheist". You obvioulsy missed the point there. Again, this is a debate room. As a Christian ( like yourself), you ought to share what you believe and defend it. So why do you keep it to yourself than? Are you being obedience to the words of Jesus ( not saying you dont though)?
golden_april wrote:
all you're doing is just putting down other people and their beliefs.. you just have to respect that that's what they believe in, said and done.. =]
This is a debate room. We're here to debate and conversate/discussion etc. I mean, i do respect other pple for what they believe too, u know? But im here becuase i want to debate. Maybe in your case, you ought not to be here if you have a different purpose. Yup. When im home, i dont debate or anything. Only when im online, i get to debate becuase its fun. So yeah, Thats why this thread exists.
November 21, 2009 - 9:45pm
#3
Atheist: So you're a christian?
Christian: yep
Atheist: So can i ask you a question?
Christian: sure
Atheist: What do you do when someone throws a lighted dynamite at you?
Christian: Nothing. Must have been God's will.
Atheist: well, good luck with that. I heard you christians believe in creation/intelligent design?
Christian: yes
Atheist: So where are your evidence?
Christian: I don't really have any, but i have my faith. God created the world in seven days...
Atheist: (man here we go again with the same old story. this guy is annoying)
Christian: ...then he sent his son to Earth on a suicide mission...
Atheist: (man he is still going...i wonder whose on HP right now)
Christian: ...so you see that's my evidence.
Atheist: So you don't really have any evidence, do you?
Christian: no...
Atheist: Be honest with me, why are you a christian?
Christian: Because i can commit sins and not feel guilty about them; as long as i keep telling people that Jesus died for my sins I can be as evil as i like.
Atheist: Is that your excuse for believing in god also?
Christian: Hell Yeh. we've gotten away with so much murders. we are the most single violent cult in the world/history. we have: killed thousands upon thousands during the crusades, the inquisitions where we stretched and tortured people on racks, the witch hunts, where we killed hundreds of so called witches, we killed millions of native americans, enslaved millions of africans, and we got aways with all this because we did it all in the name of God. hahaha
Atheist: no wonder why ur a christian. u don't need god; what u need is psychological help.
May 5, 2010 - 10:27am
#4
hahaha, that is a good one wolfgang.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.
– Edward Gibbon
thats all i have to say. truth.
August 30, 2010 - 5:45pm
#5
Wolfgang,
No where does Jesus says we can commit as much sins and be forgiven. The Apostle Paul clearly states this in Romans 6:15. If you can show me one verse from scripture that support your dialogue, you would have disproved a Christian. So your dialogue is false to start off with that is built on straw men arguments. Refer to Stalin and Atheists Communist in China and Russia who killed masses of people in the name of atheism. Ah, now you will try to distance yourself from this.
May 5, 2010 - 10:55am
#8
I wounder what God is thinking... watching his children... debate silly matters like these. (=
August 30, 2010 - 6:34pm
#9
God and Jesus did not told their children to discriminate others belief. B-man here just thinks he's above god and heaven. He is a disgrace, if you ask me. I know a lot of Christianity people but have I not come across one who is a disgrace like B-man. Going around abusing god, Jesus, and mother nature's name, what an embarrassment. 
Why not talk about Satan? He's more of Satan's children, if you ask me.
August 30, 2010 - 8:01pm
#10
DEDE wrote:
God and Jesus did not told their children to discriminate others belief. B-man here just thinks he's above god and heaven. He is a disgrace, if you ask me. I know a lot of Christianity people but have I not come across one who is a disgrace like B-man. Going around abusing god, Jesus, and mother nature's name, what an embarrassment.
I can't really take you seriously since you apparently don't understand the basic teachings of Christianity. I doubt you understand what Jesus and Paul preached.
August 30, 2010 - 8:31pm
#11
First of all, I'm not Christianity.
Second of all, I never told you to took me seriously. It was your choice
Third of all, you said you're not discriminating but pretty much
using Christianity and Atheist to said Atheist is more stupid then Christianity I wonder why only Atheist when there's plenty of other religions?
Last of all, even if I don't understand what they're preaching, at least I understand very well that you are abusing it.
But then again You're ignorant. You can't face reality and society So it's okay to denied everything Probably it was the way you grew up and your surroundings. You should really go see a therapist and tell him or her what is going through your mind Maybe it'll help put you out of that misery you've been having
August 30, 2010 - 8:50pm
#12
DEDE wrote:
Third of all, you said you're not discriminating but pretty much using Christianity and Atheist to said Atheist is more stupid then Christianity I wonder why only Atheist when there's plenty of other religions? Last of all, even if I don't understand what they're preaching, at least I understand very well that you are abusing it.
Yup, you obviously don't understand. What did i abuse? You've misrepresenting the whole issue here.
DEDE wrote:
But then again
I see you're babbling at the moment. Try to keep up with the argument and answer the claim that is raised in this thread. Personal attack is a sign of defeat, and failure, or incapable of defending a position.
August 30, 2010 - 8:59pm
#13
Oh B-man you called someone ignorant You failed to keep up with the argument So why does it matter if I go sidetrack? Hrm?
You going around using the name of God and Jesus in targeting atheist?
Where is your proof that Jesus or God said to attack those who does not believe in what you believe? Why use God and Jesus name in all your debates? Show some respect will you? If you so called understand the preaching so well, you won't be going around attacking other religions using their name Shame on you. Can't even defend yourself in the debate, that your only source is to use the name of God and Jesus. What a disgrace to all Christianity.
August 30, 2010 - 9:01pm
#14
I should rephrase that,
"You are a disgrace to all Christianity." There. Much better.
August 30, 2010 - 9:31pm
#15
DEDE wrote:
Oh B-man you called someone ignorant
There is no specific verse Jesus command believers to attack others. However, Jesus clearly says:
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
We are to preach the gospel to every creatures. Again, here, in early Acts period, Peter says:
[1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
God does not need anyone to prove His existence. It is not a necessity that His existence be shown. It is self evident that God has revealed Himself through Creation. The world would still go along, God had still be the almighty.
On the contrary, we are to preach the gospel. The Bible says to give an answer for anybody that raises objection to Christianity. Why? Because the Bible commands it, and world demands it.
Now show me from where i go wrong?
DEDE wrote:
Why use God and Jesus name in all your debates? Show some respect will you? If you so called understand the preaching so well, you won't be going around attacking other religions using their name
That's the point of the debate. To ask sincere questions, defending the truth of God, etc. It's not a disgrace. It's apologetics.
August 30, 2010 - 9:31pm
#16
"There is no specific verse Jesus command believers to attack others..."
So it never told you to attack atheist Then why are you attacking it?
Hrm?? Aren't you putting it's name to shame? For sure you're not defending it either. =)
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"
I surely understand that part. But I don't think you understand it that well that's why you attack atheist. But keep this to your mind that your ancestors were once atheist. So show some respect to the dead, will you. =)
August 30, 2010 - 9:39pm
#17
DEDE wrote:
So it never told you to attack atheist
In such debates we do attack. We attack presupposition, logical fallacies, straw man arguments, etc. There is nothing wrong with that. Unless you meant attack as in literally then no.
DEDE wrote:
I surely understand that part. But I don't think you understand it that well that's why you attack atheist. But keep this to your mind that your ancestors were once atheist. So show some respect to the dead, will you. =)
Strictly out of logic, you haven't show me where i went wrong. How am i wrong in such a short general statement?
August 30, 2010 - 9:35pm
#18
[1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
God does not need anyone to prove His existence. It is not a necessity that His existence be shown. It is self evident that God has revealed Himself through Creation. The world would still go along, God had still be the almighty.
On the contrary, we are to preach the gospel. The Bible says to give an answer for anybody that raises objection to Christianity. Why? Because the Bible commands it, and world demands it.
Now show me from where i go wrong?
Please stick to the argument. I never questioned his existence.
Where you go wrong, is you have abused his/her name due to your ignorant of reality and how the society is today.
August 30, 2010 - 9:42pm
#19
DEDE wrote:
Please stick to the argument. I never questioned his existence. Where you go wrong, is you have abused his/her name due to your ignorant of reality and how the society is today.
I was just making an statement there and giving you some details along with the verses above. I'm wrong because i abused whos name? ignorant of reality? Society? What about it?
August 30, 2010 - 10:09pm
#20
Telling me I should stick to the argument, why don't you try to stick to it also? Adding that just means you couldn't defend yourself anymore. (You will seriously make a remark on it 
but it is no surprise ) In today's reality and society, majority have accepted others believes even though they may have not approve some things. Using God and Jesus name, why don't you try to at least for once try not to use their name in all your debates? They're not the ones debating, you are. So let's cut the crap now shall we? Let's start from what you think and believe and not what he or she says. We're not going from and second or third person point of view. We're going with the first person. So yes B-man? Can you do that? Or is that a no?
People are getting tired of you since you start a debate but you do not said what you think or believe but from a second or third party's view all the time but never once from the first party. =)
August 30, 2010 - 10:31pm
#21
DEDE wrote:
Using God and Jesus name, why don't you try to at least for once try not to use their name in all your debates?
Why should a believer give up God as their basis for making sense of reality? There is no reason for giving up God as our authority. Once you remove God, then where do you stand on? On what basis do you tell me that i'm wrong of doing anything when you have no standard by which you can judge in the very first place?
DEDE wrote:
They're not the ones debating, you are. So let's cut the crap now shall we? Let's start from what you think and believe and not what he or she says. We're not going from and second or third person point of view. We're going with the first person. So yes B-man? Can you do that? Or is that a no?
I have been doing that since then.
DEDE wrote:
People are getting tired of you since you start a debate but you do not said what you think or believe but from a second or third party's view all the time but never once from the first party. =)
Apparently you haven't read any of my post. I precisely state what i believe. What do you want to discuss about?
August 30, 2010 - 10:56pm
#22
I'm starting to wonder if you are just being ignorant or if you are just plain straight up slow?
But anyways, as you were saying:
01. No, what you believe in and what you said are two different things. What you believe in should not be in a third person view all the time about what he or she said. That's what make your arguments weak. Because all you can said is something like this for an example, "God/Jesus said this or that" but so what? What are you trying to point out? You believe in it but where is your say in it? It's not what you said, it's what they said.
02. You're the one who is not reading my posts, silly. =) That is why all you can say to me now is why should you give up your believe in god and it's existence? when I never said anything about you giving up your believes and questioning it's existence. Now B-man don't be putting words in people just because you failed in your argument. You're the one not sticking to the argument. So let's end this. You B-man loves debating but you do not know how to debate. You cannot accept the fact that I am telling you to start speaking from your point of view as a first person and not a third person. What a disappointment this is. Hopefully you'll improve your debates and start typing from your view and not from a he said she said view in the future.
August 30, 2010 - 11:37pm
#23
DEDE wrote:
I'm starting to wonder if you are just being ignorant or if you are just plain straight up slow?
But anyways, as you were saying:
01. No, what you believe in and what you said are two different things. What you believe in should not be in a third person view all the time about what he or she said. That's what make your arguments weak. Because all you can said is something like this for an example, "God/Jesus said this or that" but so what? What are you trying to point out? You believe in it but where is your say in it? It's not what you said, it's what they said.
If we're discussing from a biblical point of view, then we use the Bible as our starting point. As stated above, I quote some verses explaing that Jesus commanded us to preach the gospel, and Peter (a disiciple of Jesus) states that we should always be ready to give an answer for the unbelievers for the hope that is in us. We can still have confidence that the Bible is reliable as majority of critical scholars agree upon. This can be left for an open discussion some other time. (Manuscript evidence, archeological that corroborate the Bible, etc).
DEDE wrote:
02. You're the one who is not reading my posts, silly. =) That is why all you can say to me now is why should you give up your believe in god and it's existence? when I never said anything about you giving up your believes and questioning it's existence.
Asking me to abandon faith in Jesus for the sake of the debate is pretty much like asking an atheist to give up their atheism. It's like asking an atheist to prove there is no God by using the Bible only. I would be asking the atheist to give up his position. And that's the same way you're asking me to do here. For the sake of this discussion, you have to give me reasons why believing in otherwise is correct as oppose to believing in God.
For example, why is it not logical or rational to believe in God, etc...
DEDE wrote:
Now B-man don't be putting words in people just because you failed in your argument. You're the one not sticking to the argument. So let's end this. You B-man loves debating but you do not know how to debate. You cannot accept the fact that I am telling you to start speaking from your point of view as a first person and not a third person. What a disappointment this is. Hopefully you'll improve your debates and start typing from your view and not from a he said she said view in the future.
In any case, multi independent sources of attestation is required for evidence. If you only speak of your own, how is that reliable? My evidences come from other sources that agrees with each other. From America to other continents, there are people that are in agreements with it. It is put up there for peer reviews. LOL!
Now as for you, does anybody know you? If anything, you alone having opinion of your own point of view is not big enough to go mainstream. Thus, is hard to write a report on it because the sources are lacking. LOL! You'll have to come up with compelling evidence against God.
August 31, 2010 - 12:03am
#24
01. Should I rephrase it? It seems you have mistakenly misread and do not understand what I'm saying? Let me clarify it. All I asked was for you to start speaking from a first person view and as I recalled I did mentioned as in what you think and what you believe and not a third person view of a he said she said. All you have ever done throughout this who debate was talking from a third person view. So where does that said abandon your believes and tell you to give up on what you believe in? I am sorry that all I said was for you to speak from your point of view was going to get you so offended you're going to make up assumptions trying to said "Oh so she is trying to tell me to give up on what I believe in" What a joke.
02. Atheist? Did I speak about the one who created atheist as my source of evidence? Did I speak in a third person of a he said she said? I don't think so. That is what make you a weak debater. You have all the evidence but you don't even know how to use it, what is it good for?
03. Does anybody know me? Well, does anybody know you? Are you all that important for everyone to know you? I don't think. Don't think too highly of yourself now.
Last of all, B-man you are getting nowhere. Throughout this whole time, I've been asking you questions and all you do is questioning it. If you said he said if we were to be questioning it, you should be giving us the answer and not what he said that if we were to question it. That is not an answer. That is just what he said. So where is the answer? LOL. I can't believe you have the time to said he said that, but yet you question us our questions only, but can't give us our answers. Not much of a good messenger you are. What a shamed it is. You have the evidence, but you can't even provide the evidence to my question, "Did God/Jesus said you should discriminate atheist?" you do not have the evidence yet you dare to use the name of God and Jesus to discriminate. Get real. IT'S PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT PUT GODS AND JESUS NAME TO BAD USE IN THE FIRST PLACE. Before you start replying back, READ CAREFULLY and MAKE SURE YOU UNDERSTAND FULLY before you start making ASSUMPTIONS again. =)
August 31, 2010 - 1:59am
#25
DEDE wrote:
All you have ever done throughout this who debate was talking from a third person view. So where does that said abandon your believes and tell you to give up on what you believe in? I am sorry that all I said was for you to speak from your point of view was going to get you so offended you're going to make up assumptions trying to said "Oh so she is trying to tell me to give up on what I believe in" What a joke./quote]
I've shown you two verses earlier in the Bible as third person story telling of what happened during the time of Jesus. They were recorded by key eye-witnesses or companions of the disciples. I'm simply telling you that because i want you to understand the context of the story. With that said, now we can understand why believers today has to defend the faith. It all go back to that time.
Moreover, i didn't stop telling you what i think too. But i gave you verses to support my arguments. So for you to succeed in this debate, you'll have to invalidate the claim of the disciples who recorded these event historically because that's where i quoted from.
Side note: Don't argue against me, but rather argue the passages i'v shown.
Concerning the abandon of faith, you told me earlier to not use Jesus/God in my debate. So i was responding to that statement you raised. Why should i have to give up my reasons to believe in Jesus/God, just so i can lower myself to your own proposition? I don't have to.
DEDE wrote:
02. Atheist? Did I speak about the one who created atheist as my source of evidence? Did I speak in a third person of a he said she said? I don't think so. That is what make you a weak debater. You have all the evidence but you don't even know how to use it, what is it good for?
No, i'm just using an analogy to prove my point. Even if you speak in terms of first person, you must provide evidence outside of yourself in this debate. Otherwise, you're only offering opinions, not facts.
DEDE wrote:
03. Does anybody know me? Well, does anybody know you? Are you all that important for everyone to know you? I don't think. Don't think too highly of yourself now.
If one is a Christian, then in that sense almost everybody know what a Christian is. Put your face out there and the world will be like "WTF"! Cuz not many people know what Shamanism is. Are you a follower of Shamanism? Do we have any scientists publish any works on it? I don't think so.
Oh look at the world religions. Shamanism is missing.
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
Perhaps the evidence is lacking and didn't make it into mainstream. No wonder people don't talk about it anymore because it's dying.
DEDE wrote:
Last of all, B-man you are getting nowhere. Throughout this whole time, I've been asking you questions and all you do is questioning it. If you said he said if we were to be questioning it, you should be giving us the answer and not what he said that if we were to question it. That is not an answer. That is just what he said. So where is the answer? LOL. I can't believe you have the time to said he said that, but yet you question us our questions only, but can't give us our answers. Not much of a good messenger you are. What a shamed it is. You have the evidence, but you can't even provide the evidence to my question, "Did God/Jesus said you should discriminate atheist?" you do not have the evidence yet you dare to use the name of God and Jesus to discriminate. Get real. IT'S PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT PUT GODS AND JESUS NAME TO BAD USE IN THE FIRST PLACE. Before you start replying back, READ CAREFULLY and MAKE SURE YOU UNDERSTAND FULLY before you start making ASSUMPTIONS again. =)
You will not find a specific verse in the Bible that says we're to discriminate other people. If you want to argue for and against the Bible, then you need to quote it - assuming that you have a certain degree of understanding of the Bible. But you do find specific verses that says to love for others and treat them fairly etc. Things of that nature. So in the light of all this, i can use the Bible as my basis to argue for and against my proposition.
Now as for you, where is your basis? According to you, why is it wrong to discriminate people and why is it right for you to impose that on me, telling me not to do it on others?
According to the Christian worldview, i have the right to judge what is moral and immoral because the Bible is my basis in which i can make sense of reality. It is the Word of God! Morality is rooted and dependent on God. So i start from there. But let's assume i put Jesus/God away for the sake of this debate. Then why should it still be wrong to discriminate people? Why is it wrong to lied, murder, raping etc?
As i stated earlier when you remove God, you remove the standard by which objective truth is established. That means that without these objective truths, we can make up anything we like and have contradictory results. One man's moral is another man's immoral. Therefore, you can't tell me i'm wrong for contradicting your morality. After all if we leave God out, then we're all correct. What's true for you is true for you, and what is true for me is true for me. But this view has major problems.
You got no basis to say it is wrong. Yet, you told me that i'm wrong for discriminating others. Thus, it is self refuting and you have no ground for saying that to me.
DEDE wrote:
Did God/Jesus said you should discriminate atheist?" you do not have the evidence yet you dare to use the name of God and Jesus to discriminate.
No, Jesus did not say that. Jesus says very clearly to love our enemies and do good to those who do wrong to you. We are to love God and our neighbor.
What do you mean i don't have evidence? Jesus makes it clear to love our enemies. So anything contrary to that is wrong.
Really, i use God's name to discriminate? How do you know that?
August 31, 2010 - 10:07am
#26
Businessman wrote:
I've shown you two verses earlier in the Bible as third person story telling of what happened during the time of Jesus. They were recorded by key eye-witnesses or companions of the disciples. I'm simply telling you that because i want you to understand the context of the story. With that said, now we can understand why believers today has to defend the faith. It all go back to that time.
Yes as I recall, you went off the side =) Now seriously? Are we arguing about your topic or your sidetrack? As I recalled, the bible you used, was not the original one? Hrm? Googling the bible and copying and pasting it if you can't even remember well, what's the good in that? Your source is the bible, my source is you and my knowledge. It is not the bible who should be debating. It is you. You can use it, but why not make it into a first person? Why keep using your source as your debater?
Businessman wrote:
Moreover, i didn't stop telling you what i think too. But i gave you verses to support my arguments. So for you to succeed in this debate, you'll have to invalidate the claim of the disciples who recorded these event historically because that's where i quoted from.
Side note: Don't argue against me, but rather argue the passages i'v shown.
Concerning the abandon of faith, you told me earlier to not use Jesus/God in my debate. So i was responding to that statement you raised. Why should i have to give up my reasons to believe in Jesus/God, just so i can lower myself to your own proposition? I don't have to.
B-man, it is never my fault you're thinking was a bible. You speak in a third person view. Not from your view. How do you expect people to know it was what you were thinking? Don't argue against you? Isn't that what debates are for? Argue about the passage? Was that your topic? I thought it was about Christianity and Atheist? Wasn't your passage just your source? So why do we argue about it? Or did you failed to support the first one that you're turning into the passage now? And as I recalled, I told you to try not to used so much of the God/Jesus said this and that because they are not the ones debating. You are. Do you not know how to debate? God and Jesus are a source. You are not them. Why not said in your own words? Why keep talking like it is them debating and not you?
Businessman wrote:
No, i'm just using an analogy to prove my point. Even if you speak in terms of first person, you must provide evidence outside of yourself in this debate. Otherwise, you're only offering opinions, not facts.
Right. By targeting the atheist just because you're Hmong? Oh I offered both. You on the other hands only offer facts but not opinions. Debates are all about facts and opinions. This is what makes your arguments weak since you do not speak about your opinions but facts.
Businessman wrote:
If one is a Christian, then in that sense almost everybody know what a Christian is. Put your face out there and the world will be like "WTF"! Cuz not many people know what Shamanism is. Are you a follower of Shamanism? Do we have any scientists publish any works on it? I don't think so.
Oh look at the world religions. Shamanism is missing.
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
Perhaps the evidence is lacking and didn't make it into mainstream. No wonder people don't talk about it anymore because it's dying.
As I recalled, you asked if anyone know me? Correct? You did not said "Does anyone know what atheist is?" So please stay on track. Just because you're Christianity does not mean people know who you, the person is. They only know Christianity. They don't know you exist Isn't that question simple enough? That scientists or people like you do not believe spirituality, so why will there be any documents? Hrm? As I recalled, the bible you got was not even the original contexts. So before you start putting the bible into bad use again, get the original one. And have you ever heard? The internet is not a good source to use on a debate? Since over half of the sites are not reliable resources? That you have to find more then one site to prove your case? Have you not learn that in school? And your bible, you used the bible, why can't you tell which edition it is. Every year a new bible comes out and it always seem to have something missing or new to it. So before you start abusing it's power, get the original one from that time period. And like my history teacher said, "A bible is not a reliable resource of evidence for you to use for. It is only there, to inspire you and lead you on to a good path."
Businessman wrote:
You will not find a specific verse in the Bible that says we're to discriminate other people. If you want to argue for and against the Bible, then you need to quote it - assuming that you have a certain degree of understanding of the Bible. But you do find specific verses that says to love for others and treat them fairly etc. Things of that nature. So in the light of all this, i can use the Bible as my basis to argue for and against my proposition.
Now as for you, where is your basis? According to you, why is it wrong to discriminate people and why is it right for you to impose that on me, telling me not to do it on others?
According to the Christian worldview, i have the right to judge what is moral and immoral because the Bible is my basis in which i can make sense of reality. It is the Word of God! Morality is rooted and dependent on God. So i start from there. But let's assume i put Jesus/God away for the sake of this debate. Then why should it still be wrong to discriminate people? Why is it wrong to lied, murder, raping etc?
As i stated earlier when you remove God, you remove the standard by which objective truth is established. That means that without these objective truths, we can make up anything we like and have contradictory results. One man's moral is another man's immoral. Therefore, you can't tell me i'm wrong for contradicting your morality. After all if we leave God out, then we're all correct. What's true for you is true for you, and what is true for me is true for me. But this view has major problems.
You got no basis to say it is wrong. Yet, you told me that i'm wrong for discriminating others. Thus, it is self refuting and you
have no ground for saying that to me.
As I recalled, your topic wasn't about God and Jesus, so why use it? Hrm? Why not defend your reasons for using Christianity and Atheist. All this time, you have not defend it but go sidetrack. The topic starter should never tell the other party to stick to the argument if he himself could not stick to it.
Businessman wrote:
No, Jesus did not say that. Jesus says very clearly to love our enemies and do good to those who do wrong to you. We are to love God and our neighbor.
What do you mean i don't have evidence? Jesus makes it clear to love our enemies. So anything contrary to that is wrong.
Really, i use God's name to discriminate? How do you know that?
What a pity what they said and what you said are two completely different things. You do not love your enemies like Jesus said. You did not do good to those who wrong you (Then again, it was you who wrong them) You love god, but not your neighbor. Therefore, your evidence are declined. But you totally ignored when I asked you, where is the answer that you said he said if we were to question about him? Huh? Where is it? Answer it. You didn't. You only said what he said and question us only. Where did he said if people were to question about him? Question then back and not give them the answer? Huh? Where is it? Why don't you tell me you're not discriminating it? Did God and Jesus told you to murder, rape and put down others believes if they don't believe in the same thing you do? No they didn't. So why used God and Jesus in every little sins you guys committed? Is it because you know they'll forive you? They're not the one telling you to do the bad things. You chose to do it, yourself. So tell me, why are you not discriminating it's name? When you used it's name in your own wrong doings? Unlike you, I believe in both Christianity and atheist because I find both ways to work. So yes, where is your say in being against atheist? Do not even argue with me about your source when this topic was about Christianity and Atheist. And as I said, the bible is only a book of inspirations. It is not a book of evidence for you to put into bad use.
August 31, 2010 - 1:54pm
#27
DEDE wrote:
Yes as I recall, you went off the side =) Now seriously? Are we arguing about your topic or your sidetrack?
As you can see, the topic of this thread is an dialogue between a Christian and an atheist. Once you get to Wolfgang response, i was answering what's in his dialogue, not personal attacks. So you're the one that went off side tracking.
DEDE wrote:
As I recalled, the bible you used, was not the original one? Hrm? Googling the bible and copying and pasting it if you can't even remember well, what's the good in that? Your source is the bible, my source is you and my knowledge. It is not the bible who should be debating. It is you. You can use it, but why not make it into a first person? Why keep using your source as your debater?
The Bible is inerrant. What does that mean? It mean that the original text that were penned by the prophets and the authors were inspired by God free of error. Christians were being persecuted within the Roman Empire in the 1st century and had lost many of their scriptures. But before it were lost, it were copied.
The Gospel, for example, were completed between 50AD-100AD after Jesus. It were written by the companions of Jesus that were handed down to the Church. The Church then decides which books were inspired and includes them into the canon. The canon is the collection of the books we have that make up the New Testament as being authoritative, because they were given by God and were handed down by the companions who knew Jesus. We have the writings today.
Be aware that in every ancient of antiguity, there is no original of anything. Every Historians know this. What so unique about the New Testament is that, it is the earliest and best attested ancient antiguity that we have. We have more copies than we have for all ancient texts combined. The time span between the original and our earliest copy is within 100 years after Jesus.
Whereas, when Historians reconscruct the same thing for other ancient texts, these other ancient texts came much later. Approximately 500 years+. The latest is 1200 years. There are certain rules that apply to what is historicity and what is not. The Bible met the criteria for historicity.
DEDE wrote:
B-man, it is never my fault you're thinking was a bible. You speak in a third person view. Not from your view. How do you expect people to know it was what you were thinking? Don't argue against you? Isn't that what debates are for? Argue about the passage? Was that your topic? I thought it was about Christianity and Atheist? Wasn't your passage just your source? So why do we argue about it? Or did you failed to support the first one that you're turning into the passage now? And as I recalled, I told you to try not to used so much of the God/Jesus said this and that because they are not the ones debating. You are. Do you not know how to debate? God and Jesus are a source. You are not them. Why not said in your own words? Why keep talking like it is them debating and not you? ]
I reference to the Bible, and I gave you some explanation of those verses. If you disagree, you are to object to those passages but you didn't. That's how a debate should be. You ask questions, i answer, i give you my opinion about the Bible and you answer. If we are debating about whether or not Jesus commanded believers to discriminate, then we should start from the Bible. And as we see earlier, no such verse exist.
We are commanded to preach the Gospel and ready to give a defense. By understanding this, then we can be better equip at evangelizing for the people who we're trying to reach.
DEDE wrote:
Right. By targeting the atheist just because you're Hmong? Oh I offered both. You on the other hands only offer facts but not opinions. Debates are all about facts and opinions. This is what makes your arguments weak since you do not speak about your opinions but facts.
Remember i was replying to Wolfgang's dialogue. No verses by Jesus commanded us to kill people. If we do that then we are misinterpreting Jesus. We are going by what the Bible says, not by what man have to say. If you can show me one verse in the Bible that allow sinful acts, then you would have disproved me.
DEDE wrote:
As I recalled, you asked if anyone know me? Correct? You did not said "Does anyone know what atheist is?" So please stay on track. Just because you're Christianity does not mean people know who you, the person is. They only know Christianity. They don't know you exist
Anyone who denies the existence of God is an atheist. I wasn't trying to say "does anyone know what an atheis is?". I was addressing that question directly to you, though. It's really simple.
DEDE wrote:
That scientists or people like you do not believe spirituality, so why will there be any documents? Hrm? As I recalled, the bible you got was not even the original contexts. So before you start putting the bible into bad use again, get the original one.
There are scientists who does believe in the existence of God. It was the Church in western Europe that gave birth to modern science in the 16-17 century. One scientist name Francis Bacon is a Christian, and he was the one that develope our scientific method.
Not having the original Bible does not disprove it. Does that mean Historians should throw the Bible away? No. Why? Because if they do then they'll have to throw out all history away too because we got no original for anything else. Yep!
However, when it comes to the New Testament, we have earlier manuscripts that go back to the time of the disciples. The difference between today's translation is merely word for word and things of that nature. They do not effect our doctrines in any way. By using textual criticism, critical scholars who are experts in this field can still reconstruct back to the original. With that said, we have confidence that what we have today is the same as what the disciples wrote then.
DEDE wrote:
And have you ever heard? The internet is not a good source to use on a debate? Since over half of the sites are not reliable resources? That you have to find more then one site to prove your case? Have you not learn that in school? And your bible, you used the bible, why can't you tell which edition it is. Every year a new bible comes out and it always seem to have something missing or new to it.
I use reliable sources from scholars who study this field. Also apologetics websites they're pretty good too. Every year a new Bible come out? That's not true. They're just modern translation from the Greek manuscripts. And yes, there are conflicting versions because of copying error.
Copyists recognized some of these issues that's why they left some marginal note at the bottom of the passages in the Bible. However, don't make this kind of excuses to not believe in God. You should read and study it and it can still be trusted. These varients do not effect your faith at all. Scholars well recognizied this.
DEDE wrote:
So before you start abusing it's power, get the original one from that time period. And like my history teacher said, "A bible is not a reliable resource of evidence for you to use for. It is only there, to inspire you and lead you on to a good path."
Your teacher is wrong. Most critical scholars will disagree her. They're historically reliable and met the conditions for historicity. Do you know how this methodology is use?
http://www.carm.org/illustration-bible-text-manuscript-tree-and-variant-...
DEDE wrote:
As I recalled, your topic wasn't about God and Jesus, so why use it? Hrm? Why not defend your reasons for using Christianity and Atheist. All this time, you have not defend it but go sidetrack. The topic starter should never tell the other party to stick to the argument if he himself could not stick to it.
That's irrevelant. This thread is about God, creaton and evolution, atheism and Christianity etc. But there is really nothing to defend here because all you're doing now is personal attacks. Stick to the dialogue that were posted in this thread.
DEDE wrote:
What a pity what they said and what you said are two completely different things. You do not love your enemies like Jesus said. You did not do good to those who wrong you (Then again, it was you who wrong them) You love god, but not your neighbor. Therefore, your evidence are declined.
Ah, i see what you're doing here. I'll grant you that for the sake of this debate - although that's not how one ought to debate anyway cuz now you're just attacking me personally. But let's assume that for you too. Do you love God and your enemies? I doubt you do - but i can't assume that. But i can point to you in Romans 3:23 says:
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
So the Bbile is correct again. Thus, disprove you and me. Would you then grant this?
Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
DEDE wrote:
But you totally ignored when I asked you, where is the answer that you said he said if we were to question about him? Huh? Where is it? Answer it. You didn't. You only said what he said and question us only. Where did he said if people were to question about him? Question then back and not give them the answer? Huh? Where is it? Why don't you tell me you're not discriminating it? Did God and Jesus told you to murder, rape and put down others believes if they don't believe in the same thing you do? No they didn't.
I have the right judge as a Christian for what is moral and immoral on the basis of God's word. God's word is the foundation for which truth is established. Unless you only want to use logic and reason alone, then we can do that too. If my basis is God's word, then that's where i start. I can judge society for their actions because i believe in moral absolutes. But you wouldn't have a standard to judge because you got no basis.
Nevertheless, that doesn't stop you from questioning it. But then you would need to appeal to your own reason and logic, not the Bible. See what i mean here? But how would you account for reason and logic, though? Can the unbelievers explain it?
As a Christian, i can. Logic is absolutes and they reflect an absolute mind. They're not the properties of the universe. Meaning that we cannot detect them through science because they are immaterial. In essence, they reflects God's character and nature. God gave me a 6 sense called common sense. Thus, I can use it to think rationally.
But for you, you're using something you cannot account for. That's begging the question. That's why i said to you " on what basis do you have to judge that i'm wrong"? Are you saying I'm wrong because i'm wrong? Using this analogy, i can say murder, raping, lieing is wrong because they are not part of God's nature. Sin is breaking God's moral law, that which contradict's God's holiness. It's wrong because when you break a moral law, you're sinning against God - a moral being. He is the author of morality. He is the one that says "thou shall not" etc.... See where i'm going? They all conform to the will of God.
DEDE wrote:
So why used God and Jesus in every little sins you guys committed? Is it because you know they'll forive you? They're not the one telling you to do the bad things. You chose to do it, yourself. So tell me, why are you not discriminating it's name? When you used it's name in your own wrong doings?
Oh i see what you mean. But again as stated above, when you sin then you are breaking God's moral law. And the Bible says that sinners deserves the righteous of God's judgement. And yes, God gave us free-will so we can still choose to do good and evil. But it wouldn't be right to credit yourself.
DEDE wrote:
Unlike you, I believe in both Christianity and atheist because I find both ways to work. So yes, where is your say in being against atheist? Do not even argue with me about your source when this topic was about Christianity and Atheist. And as I said, the bible is only a book of inspirations. It is not a book of evidence for you to put into bad use.
Really? So how does atheism explain logic? We use logic everyday, yet we hold them to be true. Also, how does atheism explain moral objective? How does an atheist tell what's right from wrong?
August 31, 2010 - 2:03pm
#28
Me personally attacking you? Where is your say in that?
You are the one who is personally attacking me.
My teacher is not wrong. For he is not like you.
You attack those who believes in the same thing you do.
Who are you to tell a Christian or catholic that they are wrong?
You B-man, is just IGNORANT. You think you know it all, but
really you don't. Everyone knows a bible is not a reliable
resource of evidence. There is too many editions to it.
And everyone knows the internet is not a reliable resource either.
That's why you should always find a lot of sites, if you're going to use the internet as your resource. You couldn't even tell me
your edition of the bible you're using. Googling for the bible, if you haven't realized, there is more then one bible. This debating is going nowhere. Since you do not have prove of whatsoever of the first bible ever made. But your internet resource and a bible that you can never even give out it's name.
Have fun debating for you are a fool. May Satan watch over you.
August 31, 2010 - 2:23pm
#29
DEDE wrote:
Me personally attacking you? Where is your say in that?
You are the one who is personally attacking me.
You are the one that says i dont love God and my enemies when you don't even know me personally. Yet, you make a lot of false accusations about me. If you want to have a meaningful dicussion then please follow the arguments in this thread. state your position clearly, i want to see if you can defend it.
DEDE wrote:
My teacher is not wrong. For he is not like you.
You attack those who believes in the same thing you do.
Who are you to tell a Christian or catholic that they are wrong?
We may have different views of interpreation of the Bible, but the idea is pretty much the same. There are many differences that he is wrong. One of many is that they praised mother Mary of Jesus, we do not. No where in the Bible tells us to do that. That was a later addition as a root cause of traditions.
DEDE wrote:
You B-man, is just IGNORANT. You think you know it all, but really you don't. Everyone knows a bible is not a reliable
resource of evidence. There is too many editions to it.
That's not true. The vast majority of critical scholars believes in the Bible. They are the experts than the average person who doesn't know a dam thing about it.
DEDE wrote:
And everyone knows the internet is not a reliable resource either. That's why you should always find a lot of sites, if you're going to use the internet as your resource. You couldn't even tell me your edition of the bible you're using. Googling for the bible, if you haven't realized, there is more then one bible. This debating is going nowhere.
There are reliable sources out there, it just a matter of knowing how to research and where to spend time in it. The Bible version i use is the King James and NIV. They're modern translations from the Greek manuscripts.
DEDE wrote:
Since you do not have prove of whatsoever of the first bible ever made. But your internet resource and a bible that you can never even give out it's name. Have fun debating for you are a fool. May Satan watch over you.
Well, early Christians uses the Latin Vulgate back then and it has been translated into various langauges. One of them is the english translations King James in 1611. The King James is inspired.
August 31, 2010 - 3:51pm
#30
oka so wat imma bout to say is not to offend u in ani way nor is it relevant to this but i hate it when ppls break dwn wat someone says and rephrases everything or replys bak to every liddo detail or word..kinda like u. jus saying..no offense plz? hahah sry if i did offend u though. oh wells..get over it.
August 31, 2010 - 4:40pm
#31
Lol Mai. I already ended yet he is still continuing it.
Geez. The more I read, it is like he is trying to tell me to state my point and stick to the argument? But he the topic starter does not need to stick to the argument. Why can't he give a reasonable reason to why we should stick to the argument but he doesn't? As I recalled reading it, he said it was a debate. Then later said it's not. So is it a debate or not? Does this person even have a brain? Does he know what he is saying? Why copy and paste only. Why think your an expert if you can't put it in your own words but keeps copying and pasting the same thing? Why steal someones work online then put it as it is your own? My oh my, what a shamed to called someone an average person when he himself is not even an expert. Experts does not need to copy and paste and steal the work of others for their own. So why can't I go sidetrack if the topic starter isn't even on track? Why give a bunch of crap that is not even his own. Yet I asked him questions he does not answer them but question them? How does he the expert expect me the average person to understand any of his load of crap if he can't even explain it. This is so embarrassing. :/
Side note: Dear B-man, you do not need to respond to this.
August 31, 2010 - 7:30am
#32
LMAO! THIS THREAD MADE MEEH LAUGH!!!!!1 
August 31, 2010 - 10:28am
#33
Lol! It makes me laugh also
August 31, 2010 - 2:27pm
#34
DEDE wrote:
Lol! It makes me laugh also
Apart from God, how does an atheist account for moral objective? Koj puas believe in Vaajtswv thaib Yexus?
August 31, 2010 - 4:12pm
#35
Eh? If you weren't so ignorant B-man you would've of saw earlier that I said I believe both Christianity and Atheist because both way works. Unlike you, you are against atheist for no reasonable reasons.
So as far as I'm reading what you wrote, you said they have different views of the bible and they are wrong in many ways. Why do you get so offended when a christian or atheist tells you, you are wrong?
You see, if they're wrong because they see the bible from a different view, wouldn't you be as wrong as they are? Since you view it different from them? But noooooooo, you can't accept that you are wrong, you see? You just gotta keep trying to prove something that you know both Christianity and Atheist will go against you.
Just because atheist chose to believe in spiritual aside from the five religions who chose to believe in gods, that does not mean you go and attack them. Spreading rumors about atheist killing and murdering for no reasons, the five main religions are just the same. Even if atheist does disappear one day, is that a surprise for us? No it's not. It is already to be expected. And since I was born in a family where both my parents sides are Christianity and shamanism, I'll like to believe that both ways work. So I do not discriminate one religion to make mine look better. That is just plain selfishness.
August 31, 2010 - 5:41pm
#36
DEDE wrote:
Eh? If you weren't so ignorant B-man you would've of saw earlier that I said I believe both Christianity and Atheist because both way works. Unlike you, you are against atheist for no reasonable reasons.
If both is true, then God exist and He does not exist. Strictly out of logic, Christianity says God does exist, the Bible is true, Jesus rose from the dead etc. Atheism says there is no God and that everything is relative. So which one? And can atheism be tenable? Can it positively live out? If so, how?
DEDE wrote:
So as far as I'm reading what you wrote, you said they have different views of the bible and they are wrong in many ways. Why do you get so offended when a christian or atheist tells you, you are wrong?
Because in the atheistic worldview, there is no right and wrong answers. Everything is relative meaning that all views are equally valid. The atheists cannot say anything is right nor wrong because he has no basis on which to judge what is moral or immoral.
However, in the Christian worldview, there is objective truth. Truth exist because God exist. If you sin, then that is wrong. Raping, child abuse, torturing babies for pleasure is objectively wrong. So as Christians, we have a standard by which we can judge. When that standard is removed, then i can say raping is ok and still be right. If there are no objective moral values then the atheists can't call anything moral or immoral. That is self refuting.
DEDE wrote:
You see, if they're wrong because they see the bible from a different view, wouldn't you be as wrong as they are? Since you view it different from them?
No, because the Christian presupposition starts from the word of God. Objective moral values exist because God exist. We say murdering, raping, is wrong because God sees it wrong. We are not to embrace the atheists standard of presupposition. Otherwise, we become fools like him.
For example, the Bible says:
Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
The word "fool" is use to describe someone who is dense. Perhaps someone who is very intelligent but refuses his intellect in a way that God has intended for him. We are not to answer according to the folly presupposition. Otherwise we become like him. The following verse states:
Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
We are not to embrace his standard of presupposition, but we are to show where his presupposition would go, if hypothetically they were true. We'll reflect his human reason against him and see how absurd it is.
So, suppose atheism is true and everything is relative. That means that lying, murdering, raping, would be right for you but not for me. If i would to do the same back to you, heck, you can't tell me i'm wrong. If someone say "there are no absolutes truth". Well this is a self refuting statement because saying "there are no absolutes truth" imply an absolute statement. It is self contradictory. Thus, not everything is relative, therefore, relativism is false. And since atheists are relativist, it is a wrong idea.
Another example is that if you say "the bible is full of contradictions, so i can't take it seriously". It would be fitting to list the contradictions and i'll try to explain them, but eventually i have to get into the "don't answer according to his folly" strategy.
First of all, i don't accept the claim that the Bible has contradictions. In my worldview, the Bible is the Word of God and it can't have contradictions because God does not contradict Himself. But for the sake of argument, even if it did has contradictions, in your worldview why would that be wrong?
We all know contradictions happens and is it wrong, right? I know they're wrong because they're contrary to God's nature. But in your worldview, how do you know contradiction is always wrong eh?
August 31, 2010 - 5:54pm
#37
Businessman wrote:
If both is true, then God exist and He does not exist. Strictly out of logic, Christianity says God does exist, the Bible is true, Jesus rose from the dead etc. Atheism says there is no God and that everything is relative. So which one? And can atheism be tenable? Can it positively live out? If so, how?
Like seriously B-man? Do you know how stupid you are right now?
You a disgrace to the Hmong clan. You are a disgrace to Christianity. All you can do is claimed something that your kind disowned. It is proven that if you are an atheist and convert to christianity, anyone will know that both way works. Only stupid thick headed no brain like you can't accept the truth. Hide B-man. Be ashamed all you want. You were born to be Hmong. You will die as as a Hmong. You can never become a PREACHER. This is why you can only preach.
DEDE wrote:
So as far as I'm reading what you wrote, you said they have different views of the bible and they are wrong in many ways. Why do you get so offended when a christian or atheist tells you, you are wrong?
Businessman wrote:
Because in the atheistic worldview, there is no right and wrong answers. Everything is relative meaning that all views are equally valid. The atheists cannot say anything is right nor wrong because he has no basis on which to judge what is moral or immoral.
However, in the Christian worldview, there is objective truth. Truth exist because God exist. If you sin, then that is wrong. Raping, child abuse, torturing babies for pleasure is objectively wrong. So as Christians, we have a standard by which we can judge. When that standard is removed, then i can say raping is ok and still be right. If there are no objective moral values then the atheists can't call anything moral or immoral. That is self refuting.
Here, you are very ironic, atheist knows right and wrong like every religion. Do not give unreasonable excuses when you Christianity is not even on your side. Like I said, just because you haven't experienced atheist, you start assuming whatsoever.
Businessman wrote:
No, because the Christian presupposition starts from the word of God. Objective moral values exist because God exist. We say murdering, raping, is wrong because God sees it wrong. We are not to embrace the atheists standard of presupposition. Otherwise, we become fools like him.
For example, the Bible says:
Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
The word "fool" is use to describe someone who is dense. Perhaps someone who is very intelligent but refuses his intellect in a way that God has intended for him. We are not to answer according to the folly presupposition. Otherwise we become like him. The following verse states:
Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
We are not to embrace his standard of presupposition, but we are to show where his presupposition would go, if hypothetically they were true. We'll reflect his human reason against him and see how absurd it is.
So, suppose atheism is true and everything is relative. That means that lying, murdering, raping, would be right for you but not for me. If i would to do the same back to you, heck, you can't tell me i'm wrong. If someone say "there are no absolutes truth". Well this is a self refuting statement because saying "there are no absolutes truth" imply an absolute statement. It is self contradictory. Thus, not everything is relative, therefore, relativism is false. And since atheists are relativist, it is a wrong idea.
And so you never answered me why you guys who committed murdering and raping put it on God, when he did not tell you guys to go murder and rape. Hrm? It is so embarrassing. You are such a hypocrite All Christianity and atheist see your wrongs but yet you said you are not. And then here you said Christian people who view the bible different from you is wrong. Geez. B-man why are you in such a denial world? Is it because you can't face the truth? Why are you trying to turn the world against you? If you're not wrong, then they are not wrong either. Are you telling us you are much more better then the Father? Are you that stupid? You are an embarrassment. And I am not interested in reading things you copied off from google and not from your bible. We are not even debating. So why are you trying to keep debating with me? You asked me if I believed in it, I give you my answer. It is not for you to keep talking about the bible. When it is not the bible who is asking me the question. You are not the Father. DO NOT ACT as if you are one. Know your place.
August 31, 2010 - 6:23pm
#38
DEDE wrote:
Like seriously B-man? Do you know how stupid you are right now? You a disgrace to the Hmong clan. You are a disgrace to Christianity. All you can do is claimed something that your kind disowned. It is proven that if you are an atheist and convert to christianity, anyone will know that both way works. Only stupid thick headed no brain like you can't accept the truth. Hide B-man. Be ashamed all you want. You were born to be Hmong. You will die as as a Hmong. You can never become a PREACHER. This is why you can only preach.
See how you insult me now. Instead of answering my questions you starting to attack me. I am Hmong i know that! So because i am Hmong, therefore, i can't become a Christian? Please explain.
DEDE wrote:
Here, you are very ironic, atheist knows right and wrong like every religion. Do not give unreasonable excuses when you Christianity is not even on your side. Like I said, just because you haven't experienced atheist, you start assuming whatsoever.
How do they account for it, though? They know what is right and wrong because they are moral creatures created by God = A moral Law Giver.
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;
This mean that God has place His moral law within each of us to know Him intimately. God is self-evident and has reveal Himself to us through our conscience and creation.
DEDE wrote:
And so you never answered me why you guys who committed murdering and raping put it on God, when he did not tell you guys to go murder and rape. Hrm? It is so embarrassing. You are such a hypocrite
Yes, we would be wrong for doing sinful acts. Sin is breaking God's moral law. People committing murdering in the name of God today would be wrong. Contrary to the Old Testament, it was for a specific reason.
DEDE wrote:
Geez. B-man why are you in such a denial world? Is it because you can't face the truth? Why are you trying to turn the world against you? If you're not wrong, then they are not wrong either.
Realistically, we're all wrong before God. Jesus came to bring righteousness on the cross so that we can be right with God. Do you know what He did for you? Are you saved?
DEDE wrote:
Are you telling us you are much more better then the Father? Are you that stupid? You are an embarrassment. And I am not interested in reading things you copied off from google and not from your bible. We are not even debating. So why are you trying to keep debating with me? You asked me if I believed in it, I give you my answer. It is not for you to keep talking about the bible. When it is not the bible who is asking me the question. You are not the Father. DO NOT ACT as if you are one. Know your place.
I took those passages off of a Bible website. It's the same verses in my Bible too. I didn't want to type it out, it had be better to just copy the verses. Nothing wrong with that.
I can understand that you're an unbeliever, so you wouldn't expect what the Bible has to say about you. If you don't know Jesus as your Lord and Savior, koj poob zoo lawn. You are lost.
2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
August 31, 2010 - 6:40pm
#39
Oh? So you know that I'm insulting you? I wonder why when you insult me you denied it and put the bible into it. Did I said you're Hmong you can't be Christian? All I said is you are a disgrace to both Hmong and Christianity. This is so stupid because you do not know how to read. It's like "Am I talking to an expert or just a dumbass who claims to be an expert?" Remember this to your head, B-man the "expert". You called me an "AVERAGE PERSON" so an expert should not need to ask the questions when he himself should know the questions to the answers. Just because I believed their is a god, does not mean I have to be christian in order to believe in GODS. Just like christians who believed in GHOSTS. Does that mean they have to be Atheist to believe in GHOSTS? And like I said, we are not debating about your gods because it's clear that you have your own god and Jesus and not the same as all the other Christians. You are the one who is at LOST. Not me. You can't even defend yourself but use the bible. And here you are, telling me to defend myself when all you can do is use the bible when the bible cannot even speak a word out to me. How pathetic can you be? Do you not have a brain to defend yourself? Is your brain in the bible? You B-man do not use the words GOD, JESUS, BIBLE, and CHRISTIANS on me, when you, are a lost soul. May Satan watch over you, who have fallen.
August 31, 2010 - 7:28pm
#40
DEDE wrote:
Oh? So you know that I'm insulting you? I wonder why when you insult me you denied it and put the bible into it.
When did i insult you?
DEDE wrote:
Did I said you're Hmong you can't be Christian? All I said is you are a disgrace to both Hmong and Christianity.
That is just your opinion.
DEDE wrote:
Just because I believed their is a god, does not mean I have to be christian in order to believe in GODS.
A Christian by definition is someone who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ. Anybody who does not follow Jesus Christ is not a Christian. Generally speaking, you can still hold to a belief in a God, but your view of God may be awkward. The correct view of God is revealed in Jesus Christ. Do you know what that view is like comparing to other views?
DEDE wrote:
Just like christians who believed in GHOSTS. Does that mean they have to be Atheist to believe in GHOSTS? And like I said, we are not debating about your gods because it's clear that you have your own god and Jesus and not the same as all the other Christians.
Atheists do not believe in ghosts, and they do not accept supernatural claim. The God of the Bible is the one true God who created the world and human beings. So if someone believes that there is a God who created them, then they already have some basic knowledge of the God of the Bible. But this doesn't mean they understand Him like Christian do. All Christians believe in the same God.
DEDE wrote:
You are the one who is at LOST. Not me.
The Bible says if the gospel is hid, it is hid to them that are lost. Do you know what this mean? God communicate His word to mankind revealed in the Bible when He first created the world. The gospel yog txoj hmoo zoo kws cawm tau neej dim neej lub txim. Go look up the gospel and tell me what it is, then come back and we'll continue on. At this point you can't understand what the Bible has to say yet, so no point for further discussion.
Hmong has a saying " ua txhaum neeg ces poob tse muaj. ua thxaum dab ces tau taug." "peb xav ciaj xwb tsi xav taug. xav muaj xwb tsi xav plaug." Ghosts thaib dab will kill you.
The Bible mention dab like a thief.
John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Yexus came so that we may have eternal life.
And you know in Hmong tradition, remember when someone die they have to blow queej and sent their spirit to grandpa and grandma. You gave them food and clothes so that they can eat it. Look at what Vaajtswv txoj lus hais rau peb paub:
Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
In other words, when we die we wont need food and clothes anymore. Yexus yauv coj peb kev thaib yuav wipe our tears forever. tsi muaj kev chim thaib kev nyuab siab lawm. yuav tsi muaj hungry thaib thirst anymore.
Hmong kev cais go that way... tabsi vaajtswv txoj lus go this way. Yexus came to correct peb qhov kev ua thxaum.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
What makes you think hmong people these days convert to Christianity? Now they see the truth.
August 31, 2010 - 7:28pm
#41
Businessman wrote:
DEDE wrote:Oh? So you know that I'm insulting you? I wonder why when you insult me you denied it and put the bible into it.
Businessman wrote:
When did i insult you?
When did I insult you then? I'm just stating what everyone sees you as
Businessman wrote:
That is just your opinion.
Of course it's my opinion because I'm not an idiot who does not have a brain like someone right here.
Businessman wrote:
A Christian by definition is someone who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ. Anybody who does not follow Jesus Christ is not a Christian. Generally speaking, you can still hold to a belief in a God, but your view of God may be awkward. The correct view of God is revealed in Jesus Christ. Do you know what that view is like comparing to other views?
As far as I'm understanding, you were telling me I have to be a Christian And as far as I know, you're view of Atheist is awkward also
Businessman wrote:
Atheists do not believe in ghosts, and they do not accept supernatural claim. The God of the Bible is the one true God who created the world and human beings. So if someone believes that there is a God who created them, then they already have some basic knowledge of the God of the Bible. But this doesn't mean they understand Him like Christian do. All Christians believe in the same God.
It's still spiritual things Don't be stupid now. Be an expert.
Businessman wrote:
The Bible says if the gospel is hid, it is hid to them that are lost. Do you know what this mean? God communicate His word to mankind revealed in the Bible when He first created the world. The gospel yog txoj hmoo zoo kws cawm tau neej dim neej lub txim. Go look up the gospel and tell me what it is, then come back and we'll continue on. At this point you can't understand what the Bible has to say yet, so no point for further discussion.
Of course. Because koj ruam ruam nes You don't know how defend yourself so yes let's not go further into your bible. It's getting boring when you suck at defending yourself. Why can't you be like all the Christians Mind your own "BUSINESS" QUIT PREACHING. YOU'RE NOT THE FATHER. YOU SUCK AT MAKING PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT GOD DOES EXIST. THERE ARE PLENTY OF PEOPLE WHO CAN DO BETTER THEN YOU. ALL THEY DO IS READ A PASSAGE THAT MOST INSPIRE THEM AND LET US KNOW THAT THEY JUST WANT TO SPREAD THE MESSAGE THAT THEIR IS A GOD AND THAT HE IS WATCHING US FROM ABOVE. THEY DON'T GO ALL BRAINWASHED LIKE YOU So yes B-man, this is where you can said I told you to give up on trying to get God's message to mankind. Because you FAILED to do so. So yes, go and believe in your God and Jesus. You do not share the same one with all the Christians. So yes, go knock on every door and preach to your neighbors. So don't bother replying back to my comment until you finally learned how to defend yourself without a bible that can't defend you.
August 31, 2010 - 8:11pm
#42
DEDE wrote:
When did I insult you then? I'm just stating what everyone sees you as
No, that's what you see. You make false accusation without proof and evidence. Actually you should be addressing these passages i brought up, not making accusations. It doesn't go anywhere in the debate.
DEDE wrote:
Of course it's my opinion because I'm not an idiot who does not have a brain like someone right here.
And your opinion is unsubstantiated.
DEDE wrote:
As far as I'm understanding, you were telling me I have to be a Christian
Not really, but you may not have a greater explanatory power as the Christian worldview has. For example, you can still choose to believe in other gods, but then it must be big enough to explain creation, what is man (sinful)?, sin, good and evil, sufferings, salvation, etc.
The Christian God has greater explanatory power and scope that can draw inference to the best explanation making it more plausible to accept, and by applying Christian philosophy it can be live in a fallen world. Thus, making Christianity more closer to the truth than any other religious system in the world.
Now for atheism, you can't live like there are no objective moral values, you know what i mean? They must hold to theses truths even though they deny God in their hearts. They know sinning is wrong, yet when they sin, they are closer to the truth.
Basically it means that your sins and suffering brings you closer to God. The Bible/God conflict their lives. And you just can't live that way denying God every time. They have to admit there is a God at one point. Atheism cannot be held tenable, you can't hold that view forever.
DEDE wrote:
It's still spiritual things
Hard atheists do not accept any claims without proof and empirical scientific evidence.
DEDE wrote:
Of course. Because koj ruam ruam nes
Why can't you be like all the Christians
You have fail miserably. You didn't even answer my questions all you're doing is babbling around. This is a sign of defeat on your part. When you starts to attack on people like that, it means that you're incapable of defending your position, or a failure in your arguments.
DEDE wrote:
So yes B-man, this is where you can said I told you to give up on trying to get God's message to mankind. Because you FAILED to do so. So yes, go and believe in your God and Jesus. You do not share the same one with all the Christians.
You don't even know the basic teachings of Christianity. It's like showing you your own hmong kevcais when you don't even know.
DEDE wrote:
So yes, go knock on every door and preach to your neighbors. So don't bother replying back to my comment until you finally learned how to defend yourself without a bible that can't defend you.
I don't even have to quote the Bible for you. I do it because i wanted to show you, not because i needed to. For the sake of the argument, i'll put the Bible away. My question to you is:
How would you explain such an fined tune universe that we happen to live in? The universe is complex it could had no arise by chance. Scientist have shown that the initial conditions of parameters is fine tuning that if you removed by 0.1 inch life would be impossible.
Ok, i put the Bible away this time. Now what?
August 31, 2010 - 8:46pm
#43
My oh my. So we are debating? I thought you said we're not debating?
Hrm? But then B-man We're not debating about what you started no more You said it yourself it's not DEBATING So that topic was dropped. When you start this gibberish with me, it was no longer about your topic. It is about you who we are debating Therefore, I do not need to answer any of your questions that may be related to the bible since you did not answer any of mine when we were still talking about your topic. You dropped it. Therefore, your questions to this has been declined. And I did not make any accusation if I did not named anyone. Even you knew well, people find you to be ignorant and annoying. That you preach more then a Father will ever preach. =) Now that's not accusation if you knew that already So yes This debate is no longer about your topic. It's all about YOU. I will love to see how long you'll be able to go on without unreasonable excuses. Or else, I will just said, you B-man are just like every average being in this world. With a side note that said you should go see a therapist to speak out what is going through your mind and that you are ill. =)
September 1, 2010 - 11:20am
#44
DEDE wrote:
My oh my. So we are debating? I thought you said we're not debating?
Hrm? But then B-man
Your attacks shows signs of weakness in a debate. It shows that you are illogical, having a bad conduct and poor character. Your arguments is fallacious dodging every questions i previous asked.
With that said, not being able to answer the questions i would have to assume you don't know. We'll continue this further when you are able to behave. When i stop replying that mean i stop babysitting you.
A Christian can remain a believer even after granting the premises of all of the arguments against the existence of God. That is, the believer who remains a Christian is not unreasonable, or at least no less reasonable than he was to begin with.
You didn't answer my question - How can Christianity and atheism be both true? You even break the laws of logic here. You can't think right, you're out of control, and misrepresenting me all the time. =)
September 1, 2010 - 5:35pm
#45
And as I said, you dropped the topic that we were not debating about it. And as I have said in the previous comments, DO NOT REPLY BACK until you fully understand. And if you knew how to read, you would've of answered my previous questions but you did not. So why should I answer any of your questions that is related to your bible? Why should I answered any questions that you said it was a debate then later said it wasn't? Anything you said about me can be used against you. So yes B-man? Where is my answer to one of the questions if you so wanted to debate a topic that you have dropped? What did God/Jesus told you to explain to us if we the people were to question about him? Hrm? You did not do so. You only said God/Jesus said if we were to question about them, you should explain it to us. Psh! Like puh-leeze! Is that an explanation? Are you freaking stupid? Do you not know what an explanation is? Not for you to question us back when you are suppose to give us our answers. Not questions. You B-man, could not even stop talking about anything related to your bible. You shouldn't be blabbing about nonsense when anything you said is against you This is the end B-man. It is not you babysitting me, it is me Because you do not know how to grow up. You are ill. YOU SERIOUSLY NEED HELP. GET THE HELP YOU NEED. So DO NOT! I repeat, DO NOT! REPLY BACK TO THIS COMMENT. FOR YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW TO READ BUT YET KEEP BLABBING THINGS THAT CLAIMED TO SAID IT WAS ME,BUT THE TRUTH IS, YOU ARE JUST TALKING ABOUT YOURSELF MAY THE FALLEN ANGEL WHO IS NOW THE DEVIL, SATAN, WATCH OVER YOUR POOR SOUL.
September 1, 2010 - 6:44pm
#46
DEDE wrote:
What did God/Jesus told you to explain to us if we the people were to question about him? Hrm? You did not do so.
Your question don't make sense. Why would you expect Jesus to say, if anything, concerning what you have to question? Even if Jesus did mention, specifically what area do you want to hear about? State your question clearly.
DEDE wrote:
You only said God/Jesus said if we were to question about them, you should explain it to us. Psh! Like puh-leeze! Is that an explanation?
Why is that wrong? Anybody can search the Bible - they contains His words. All i'm doing is quoting it to you. If you want to disprove me, then you'll have to pick the Bible and follow alone.
DEDE wrote:
are you freaking stupid? Do you not know what an explanation is? Not for you to question us back when you are suppose to give us our answers. Not questions. You B-man, could not even stop talking about anything related to your bible.
It's not wrong for you to ask questions. But for you, why is it wrong for me to use the Bible? Oh, you don't like the Bible huh? Ah, so because you don't like the Bible since it go against your free-will, or perhaps sexual mores, therefore, you don't want to have to do anything with the Bible? The Bible puts a checkmate on those who reject truth. Now what question do you have?
You didn't tell me specifically what your questions are, all you've said was just questioning, if i remember correctly.
September 1, 2010 - 8:48pm
#47
Why don't you go read all the posts? Go find all the questions I've asked?
You didn't even answered one of my questions that I repeated in the recent comment.
The BIBLE is all about truth, huh?
Then why are you always in denial and being ignorant and cannot see your own wrong doings?
As I recalled, you said you and the Christians have different view of the bible, but that they are all wrong. But when I said that if you view it different from them, and you said they are wrong, you must be wrong also. But you see, you won't admit you are ever wrong.
How are you going to said a "CHRISTIAN WHO VIEWED THE BIBLE DIFFERENT FROM YOU" is WRONG? You didn't answered that also
You just used the bible that doesn't even give the answer to it.
I do not have anything against the BIBLE. The BIBLE to me is only a book that people used for inspirations. What I have against is you overly abused the BIBLE.
This was a challenge to see if you can be like the rest of the Christians. As far as all the Christians I've met, no one uses the bible to answered people like you do Because they are not ill like you. They have a BRAIN. Not like you Who can't think for his self and finding things in the bible that does not even answered to anything anyone asked of
I guess you probably thought "OH IF I GO BEYOND ALL CHRISTIANITY, I'LL BE WORTHY OF GOD. THEN I WILL FINALLY SEE GOD AND JESUS."
This I feel sorry for you. Speaking so much about your god and Jesus, you don't even share the same GOD AND JESUS with the rest of CHRISTIANITY. No wonder you talk so much about nothing. BECAUSE YOU WERE NOT WORTHY ENOUGH FOR THEM TO APPEAR IN YOUR VERY EYES. TELLING PEOPLE THEY'RE NOT WORTHY ENOUGH FOR GOD TO APPEAR TO THEM, I guess you are just the same as everyone who you said that to
Karma sure is a bitch, isn't it?
So yes B-man, since you do not know how to read, I'll said, "DEAR B-MAN, SINCE YOU ARE ILL AND DO NOT KNOW HOW TO READ, THIS DEBATE HAS ENDED ALREADY. YOU DROPPED YOUR DEBATE A LONG TIME AGO, YOU CAN NOT BRING IT BACK UP AGAIN UNTIL A NEW PERSON COMES ALONG. THIS DEBATE WAS FOR YOU TO PROVE IF YOU CAN RELY ON YOURSELF AND NOT THE BIBLE. BUT YOU HAVE FAILED TO DO SO. DO NOT GO BACK TO YOUR FIRST DEBATE JUST BECAUSE YOU CANNOT WIN THIS DEBATE. ANYTHING YOU SAID THAT I AM, YOU ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT ME, BUT YOURSELF. MAY SATAN WATCH OVER YOUR POOR SOUL FOR YOU HAVE FAILED TO GIVEN US GOD'S MESSAGE FOR MANKIND TO BELIEVE BUT WHAT SATAN TOLD YOU TO DO SO. DO NOT, I REPEAT, DO NOT REPLY BACK TO THIS MESSAGE FOR EVERYTHING YOU SAID WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU. Sincerely, DEDE"
So yes B-man, even if you got things to said, DO NOT REPLY BACK because your comments are not even responding to anything I've wrote but things that you assumed and deny that you are not "PERSONALLY ATTACKING ME" but whine like a BIG BABY that DEDE is always "PERSONALLY ATTACKING ME".
September 1, 2010 - 10:03pm
#48
DEDE wrote:
Then why are you always in denial and being ignorant and cannot see your own wrong doings? As I recalled, you said you and the Christians have different view of the bible, but that they are all wrong. But when I said that if you view it different from them, and you said they are wrong, you must be wrong also. But you see, you won't admit you are ever wrong.
Wrong about what? And what view? I don't see how i'm wrong if there's no controversial topic to discuss about? Generally speaking, you can't just say "oh they're wrong" when you don't even know what the topic is?
DEDE wrote:
How are you going to said a "CHRISTIAN WHO VIEWED THE BIBLE DIFFERENT FROM YOU" is WRONG? You didn't answered that also
You just used the bible that doesn't even give the answer to it.
View of what differently? I said we have different interpretations of what the Bible has to say. I am open to other interpretations, but what's important is what the Bible say.
DEDE wrote:
I do not have anything against the BIBLE. The BIBLE to me is only a book that people used for inspirations. What I have against is you overly abused the BIBLE.
In what way did i abused the Bible? You don't know what it teaches, so how can you claim i abused it?
DEDE wrote:
This was a challenge to see if you can be like the rest of the Christians. As far as all the Christians I've met, no one uses the bible to answered people like you do
So when you go to school, specifically in your history class your teacher never told you to open the history book? Suppose i ask you a question regarding to history, where will you go to give me the answer?
DEDE wrote:
I guess you probably thought "OH IF I GO BEYOND ALL CHRISTIANITY, I'LL BE WORTHY OF GOD. THEN I WILL FINALLY SEE GOD AND JESUS." This I feel sorry for you.
Why is that wrong? Are you a good person?
DEDE wrote:
Speaking so much about your god and Jesus, you don't even share the same GOD AND JESUS with the rest of CHRISTIANITY. No wonder you talk so much about nothing. BECAUSE YOU WERE NOT WORTHY ENOUGH FOR THEM TO APPEAR IN YOUR VERY EYES. TELLING PEOPLE THEY'RE NOT WORTHY ENOUGH FOR GOD TO APPEAR TO THEM, I guess you are just the same as everyone who you said that to
You are mistaken. We all believe in the same God of the Bible and Jesus Christ. Nowhere did i say other people are not worthy for God to appear to people? You make so much mistakes in your response.
DEDE wrote:
So yes B-man, since you do not know how to read, I'll said, "DEAR B-MAN, SINCE YOU ARE ILL AND DO NOT KNOW HOW TO READ, THIS DEBATE HAS ENDED ALREADY. YOU DROPPED YOUR DEBATE A LONG TIME AGO, YOU CAN NOT BRING IT BACK UP AGAIN UNTIL A NEW PERSON COMES ALONG. THIS DEBATE WAS FOR YOU TO PROVE IF YOU CAN RELY ON YOURSELF AND NOT THE BIBLE. BUT YOU HAVE FAILED TO DO SO. DO NOT GO BACK TO YOUR FIRST DEBATE JUST BECAUSE YOU CANNOT WIN THIS DEBATE. ANYTHING YOU SAID THAT I AM, YOU ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT ME, BUT YOURSELF.
Again, you are in error. How are you able to talk about history, when you don't know what is in the book? LOL! You can say what you want, but if i ask you "hey dede, what page is it in? tell me the context and please explain what it means." Are you now to tell me " oh bman, i don't need the book". I will tell you " uhh, then how do i know what u said is right?"
Anyways, that's what i did. I gave you the verse and i explain them to you. So you are dumb!
Doode, you gotta chill with all this religion stuff,
i mean im a Hmong Christian too, but it's not like im gonna go around and say that my religion is better than yours,
the Bible says to not boast in yourself, but boast in the Lord..
all you're doing is just putting down other people and their beliefs.. you just have to respect that that's what they believe in, said and done.. =]